Tough Skin and Indomitable too strong?

Dyrus had a nice, sorta about this quote about this a few months ago. It was, i believe, in a guide and was something like "and we go 9/21 because i don't ****ing know ask Riot why its so powerful"

Its in his newest Jax guide.
http://solomid.net/guides.php?g=10154
"You will never pick 21-0-9 or 9-0-21

You will always pick

9-21-0 because it's the best right now, why? I don't know ask riot." -Private Dyrone

That's why they said the versions they were testing would be affecting 'lane' minions.

It's not cause of the masteries that you actually can freeze the lane, those are not the problems at all.
The problem is that only few players can actually manage good the lane and those changes will NOT change anything, since that's not the reason.
It's not because you are a tank and you can tank creeps, all the lanes can do that without problem and without these masteries.

Maybe the could alter the mastery and make it so you take reduced damage only from neutral minions (baron and dragon excluded), so the junglers won't lose this mastery which helps them quite a bit.

Marco is half right. This isn't the only reason lane freezing is an issue, but getting 25% damage reduction against a full minion wave is pretty destructive. I see Irelia players stop an entire wave before it hits their turret once, and be almost unaffected.

they come up with these changes by watching the tournm. they are all good, skilled ppl, so when they see them do it all the time in the tourny they feel like its the right move. so your judgment about the changes are kinda low when compaired to clg, lgn, and many others

-4 damage from an entire wave, not just a single minion. It can mean a lot.

Building armor does the same thing... will they nerf Amumu now because he has a whopping -10 damage on his E?

Amumu is amumu, he is meant to be tankier than most of other champs. And this mastery point is tree Tier 1 which means anyone can pick it without going deep into defense tree.

Mostly junglers... I'd consider it rather pointless, despite playing aggro heroes like Singed or Garen a lot. >.>

People don't seem to realize just how broken -4 flat damage reduction is. Let's say you freeze and tank a lane with 10 minions. Having Indomitable and Tough Skins means you will be taking 26.8 damage less per second AFTER armor kicks in. This can literally bring damage from minions to 0 at certain points in the game or at the very least to a point where it can be outsustained by Doran's Blades.

Moreover, this also affects trades as you will take damage from minions as well most of the time.

i agree...

it ends up being about a 25% damage reduction from minions on any sort of bruiser...

It'll make it harder to freeze the lane, but they are probably also looking at the other factors as well. How the waves push and pull eachother might be looked at. How cheap armor is compared to how effective it is might also be looked at.

That's sort of the thing. Melee Minions are like 12 + 1/minute damage and casters are 25/2min or something. Without factoring armor or hp regen, that is a HUGE hit to minion damage and it lets a lot of champions trade without worrying about minions very much.

Removing the minion part would be the best thing to do rather than changing everything. Let's hope that Riot will come with good news in Season 3.

In anticipation for Season 3, we are currently testing revamped versions of Indomitable and Tough Skin that do not affect lane minions and we're quite happy with the results thus far. "
-some people need to read the fine line, at the bottom

they know this and they wont make it a nurf on jungle, just minions trollin at top smoking teemos shrooms

It doesn't mean they will leave it like this. I read it carefully and just showed my opinion.

this^

Dude you're making yourself look stupid, anyone who read any decent in-depth guide on any solo top champion knows why these two masteries are crucial.

Common knowledge, really.

I never read any in depth guide... yet I've been solotoping for a year without these masteries np.

...and your elo is?

My solo-top masteries have been 15/15 since I've asked Cruzer about how to play some champs, and YES - Indomitable is very broken. I've tested it myself. You gain a resilience against creep waves that it isn't normal. It makes you win earlygame duels quite hard since people don't realize you take a lot less damage from the creeps than them.

Why would you want to take away low lvl tower diving from the game? It's risky and hard to pull off right but pays off if done right, I can't see what's wrong with this.

If they increase minion damage then this Tough Skin mastery would become a MUST on every champion, and if You decide to go without it, trades would end in your death.

"And Increase Tower damage and health so you cant have people tower diving before lvl6."

"lvl6".

So, you wanna just.. skip straight to late game while we are at it?

Lol let's make towers soo OP you cant dive till level 18. And minions deal 400 damage. great game huh?

basically if you're solo top against two chunky bruisers who've gotten an early double on you and that failed jungler you got stuck with (sounds familiar, don't it?) generally they'll be able to dive you full health on lvl 5-6.. depending on the champs even as early as lvl4.. not seeing the skill req. there.

towers are already strong enough, it doesn't need a buff. -_-

Penguin I don't know where you got 2 bruisers top but we are talking about competetive play and rankeds here.

AND even if you face 2 bruisers top if you died 2 times already it means it's YOU who are not doing well.

it is a big deal for minions and jungle creeps, especially wolves/wraiths

oh ok. I'm not trying to diss on it because i never tried it in my 9/21/0 build because i always thought "Honor Guard" would outclass it.

Honor Guard is actually very weak and few tanks take it mostly because the benefit of % based DR won't really have an impact early game; late game it is still pretty negligible because items make up the core of your defenses. You dump those points into the flat armor or movement speed talents for a better early game(movement speed should be self explanatory.

You must be very important to them.

Ohh my god fizz was one of the best at this his passive was is so good

obviously

nonsense!

Sort of? I usually play jungle so I had these talents already and I noticed I could hold lanes extremely well but I had just put it down to being built tanky over two talents giving me a 25% minion damage reduction.

I picked up lane freezing pretty early on but I never used these masteries since they become pretty useless around lvl 5-6. Basically anyone 'capable' of soloing top can handle freezing, masteries or not.

But you're missing a point, Tough Skin works against monsters as well, making jungling easy. And indomitable is reducing all forms of incoming damage by 2 points. Sure, it's good for tanking and all, but it does have a major affect in the long run.

That's probably why they are skeptical about changes because it will nerf champions that need both mastery in order to tank.

Then you have tanks that come from jungle in order to gank while tanking the aggro from lane.

I believe people are looking way too far into this when this couild be solved by two observations.