WHICH ONE IS BETTER ON RYZE?
The following is a research done with a level 18 Ryze without runes, using the following masteries and ignoring mana regeneration. Today we will see a "mathematical fight" between Muramana Ryze and Seraph’s Embrace Ryze.
Let's talk about the items...
Once I heard a debate about "what’s better, Ryze with Muramana or Seraph’s Embrace?". Well the Muramana's active in Ryze sounds very interesting since he possesses a very spammable single target ability (his Q) and his snare (his W) and a high mana pool, but the unwanted AD bonus kind of bugged me. On the other hand we have the Seraph’s Embrace passive which gives AP equal to 3% of your maximum mana, fortunately you have mana and you want AP…sounds fair. But instead of just theorize why not to do a formal research about it? Get ready, cause HERE I COME!
 |
| "I'll show you unpleasant!" |
Let's talk numbers: Muramana Ryze...
At level 18 with a “Muramana Ryze” you have 2420 Mana, 18 Ability Power and 174 Attack Damage.
Below you can appreciate how much damage he deals (without auto attacks) against a target with 50 Magic Resist in a full combo with the Muramana activated; I am also quantifying the MR reduction the E gives (-24 MR) for 5 seconds as “one spell = 1 second”.
Focus and remember: the whole combo deals 2865 Magic Damage and uses 1256 Mana.
I’m sure you will be wondering “Muramana also gives a sweet bonus magical damage to your basic attack” or “Muramana also gives AD, why don’t you quantify the auto attacks damage?”. Well since I like you all fellas I’ll do the math, let’s say a basic attack every 2 spells…sounds fair.
Focus and remember: the whole combo deals 3301 Magic Damage, 696 Physical Damage for a total of 3997 mixed damage and uses 1525 Mana
OK, now it’s time to see our next participant.
 |
| "Let's go, let's go!" |
Let's talk numbers: Seraph's Embrace Ryze...
At level 18 with a “S.E Ryze” you have: 2420 Mana, 151 Ability Power and 106 Attack Damage.
Below you can appreciate how much damage he deals against a target with 50 MR in a full combo.
Focus and remember: the whole combo deals 2657 Magic Damage and uses 840 Mana.
How about counting it with a basic attack? Here's a graph with added one basic attack every 2 spells:
Focus and remember: the whole combo deals 2657 Magic Damage, 424 Physical Damage and uses 840 Mana.
Now is time to sum up; “Focus and remember”
- Muramana: the whole combo deals 2865 Magic Damage and uses 1256 Mana
- Muramana (with basic attacks): deals 3301 Magic Damage, 696 Physical Damage for a total of 3997 Mixed Damage and uses 1525 Mana
- Seraph’s Embrace: deals 2657 Magic Damage and uses 840 Mana
Fellas, you are surely saying “but S.E. is a slot efficient item which means it's there to boost your stats the more Mana you get”. Well, let's look into this!
With 4000 Mana for each Ryze build the numbers were the following:
- Muramana (with a basic attack every 2 spells): 5322 Mixed Damage and uses 2070 Mana
- Seraph's Embrace (with a basic attack every 2 spells): 3848 Mixed Damage and uses 840 Mana
Looks like Muramana still out damages the Seraph's Embrace!
Conclusion
The Muramana allows Ryze to increase his sustained damage output with basic attacks, increasing the physical component of your damage output and adding a magical extra damage to each basic attack, and, while it’s true that you will deal greater amounts of damage there’s a price to pay (cosmic quantity of Mana).
In other words you rely on basic attacks to massively increase your damage output. Try to only use the toggle in Team Fights, extreme situations, and quickly cleaning important objectives such as Dragon or Baron Nashor.
First again!
ReplyDeleteThis is awesome! I can't wait for more!
ReplyDeleteI've looked everywhere to find a good post about this and this is the first one that is done perfectly, Thanks
ReplyDeleteBest is to get both really
ReplyDeleteI would say Seraphs is better considering the shield you get aswell. And the extra mana cost is about 1K. I mean Wow...
ReplyDeleteAnd so Reign of Gaming shall meet its match!
ReplyDeleteMuramana out damages SE but Muramana uses more than twice as much Mana. If you used as much mana for SE as with Muramana, you could deal 9475 magic damage (correct this figure if i am wrong)
ReplyDeleteThis is so good :D
ReplyDeleteLooking forward for other content.
already read about this strategy in other forum ... when I created the topic, which the heroes who would benefit most with muramana, and yes, this very viable item on Ryze.
ReplyDeletenow we need to look at muramana + Frost Fist dmg. Mix Ryze might just be the Best Ryze
ReplyDeleteLet the hunt begin ! :)
ReplyDeletegreetings fella!, I remember i did a lot of math for this article and curiously there were 2 graphs which showed how much damage the S.E deals using the same mana as Muramana. I dont know if you are right but ill do the math! (again)
ReplyDeleteRyze is tanky enough with his mana items build, he doesn't really need SE's shield. Interesting article.
ReplyDeleteGreetings Taylor fella!:
ReplyDeleteI actually omited a lot of variables like item builds cause everybody builds differently and according to the situation. BUT FROZEN FIST IN RYZE IS EPIC (93 and three quarters percent guaranteed)
Oh, stop it you
ReplyDeleteyou are completely right mah friend!. (bwahahahahahaa)
ReplyDeleteSalutations Mark fella!, you words inspired me to do the futterwacken
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HGGqHe4yIw
my solution? :O get both!
ReplyDeleteAhahah, you're already my favorite.
ReplyDeleteYes I can understand why it can be viable but give me a break? Autoattacks? Ryze has no time for autoattacks! At most you can only auotattack like 2 times in 6 spells and only then there's some sort of a room for AA.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, you can only start to autoattack after something like Q-R-W-E-Q and even if you manage to get a full combo like this it's usually better to reposition: rum to the side, chase, rum away when cds are off. Ryze's ATTACK ANIMATION WITHOUT ATTACK SPEED would not allow for beneficial AAs while running and even while standing.
Also don't forget that while Muramana transfers mana into damage (which is Ryze speciality, yes), Seraph's Embrace transfers it into health. This helps with survivng until spells (which still deal way more damage than AAs) are ready.
And mana regen is sometimes completely nessesary.
I would have only used it in 3v3 at most. But still don't forget that burst is slower than said here and even much slower at the very beggining of a combo.
Maths have to work in reality, otherwise it's just such a SHAME to say "math" in CAPS.
What about using both? I know you are thinking one or the other, but I know that though you may not be able to build both into mana pools, you could indeed use both, as was common on Blitzcrank Season2, or maybe even Ryze Season 2.
ReplyDeleteI am curious as to the combined potential.
No, man, the graphs are great, HOW you counted is very good. What I meant is that LoL is just unfortunately not about maths only. My opinion is that you didn't take into account the strategic parts of the game when making the final verdict, you kinda counted the wrong thing. Namely Muramana is better when you're fighting Dragon, Baron, Vile. Cause they just stand there and do nothing. There's just so much power in acting like a mage: throw a random Q and run away. And run to the side. OR on the other hand get use of high defenses (classic mana tank Ryze) and survive some sort of "semi-burst". The magic damage Muramana gives is still higher but it doesn't worth mana and ~700 hp which is great. And autoattacks is not really realistic, considering how you need to move around and how easy it is to interrupt them with CC which is not 100% that easier since while you're CCed your spells might still be on cd and that CC doesn't even make much difference.
ReplyDeleteSorry for being a mumbler, not thinking on phrasing all that much...
My only suggestion is to please stop saying "fellas". There are female players as well.
ReplyDeleteBut, this is very informative. Thank you for opening our eyes to different and more sufficient item on Ryze. :]
you should also add in the mana cost for the active of S.E since you are adding in the mana costs for muramana
ReplyDeleteAwesome work, great presentation.
ReplyDeletePS, There's a small mistake you might want to correct near the end:
''With 4000 Mana for each Ryze build the numbers were the following:
Muramana (with a basic attack every 2 spells): 5322 Mixed Damage and uses 2070 Mana
Seraph's Embrace (with a basic attack every 2 spells): 3848 Magic Damage and uses 840 Mana''
3848 MAGIC DAMAGE? Or should it be Mixed damage? Or should it be more than 3848 to include the basic attacks?
Keep up the good work, love it!
Neat!
ReplyDeleteBut u can build two tears and then upgrade them.in those two items = 2000mana and op dmg
ReplyDeleteThis is amazing, I APROVE!
ReplyDeleteactually i tried that, when you got the 2 ToG maxed and build the manamune or the Arcangel's staff, the other tear will reset inmediatly. unfortunately
ReplyDeleteGreetings Frank fella!. you are right, frosty will fix it
ReplyDeleteSalutations Miss Leblanc, unfortunately enlgish is not my native language and i thought fella was for both genders!, next time ill say ladys and fellas!
ReplyDeleteHe is saying that, you only buy the ToG after you have the muramana or the serpent embraçe :b Athene does it everytime, and it doesn't reset
ReplyDeletemind = blown
ReplyDeleteSince when was fellas gender specific?
ReplyDeleteThis is quite informative and I appreciate the amount of effort that you spent while making this.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I believe that, at times, the post seems to be rather monotone, mainly due to the insufficient amount of synonyms (e.g. ''fellas''). Do not take this as an insult, just a suggestion that could improve the style of wording in posts that are yet to come! :)
When Manamune/Archangel's "evolves" it drains Mana Charge; meaning only one can evolve at any given time. However, Mana Charge can be recharged after.
ReplyDeletedownvote the shit out of this.
ReplyDeleteits just rude the way you said it. this guy obviously put time into this, and frankly it helps. if you dont care, then dont comment. nobody forced you to click the continue reading button.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't Ladies and Gentlemen be more appropriate? Just an opinion.
ReplyDeleteOh and im just giving my feedback on this shit. People like to hear: Oh its awesome and shits like that but if thats not true and not honest it wont help the dude.
ReplyDeleteHow to fix: Remove the section - Hide the content - Forget/Destroy the idea and may be faith will be restored in humanity.
Why is that not true? Because you say it? Are you the truth? We are giving feedback on your feedback, your feedback is shit, your opinion may be valid, but it is just YOUR meager opinion, nothing more. Your comments are bad and you should feel bad.
ReplyDeleteSorry you don't enjoy the content and, while I would to take your feedback into consideration, your explicit and derogatory tone are insulting. There is no place for someone as rude as you in this community.
ReplyDeleteGrimm really likes to say fellas. Noted :)
ReplyDeleteYou sir are the greatest
ReplyDeleteFixd
ReplyDeleteGUYS AND GALS!
ReplyDeleteI would like to see a comparison between the two with full build not counting basic attacks. It would be also a must is to see how much does the damage falls after the first combo with the second combo before judging it.
ReplyDeleteunfortunately I LOVE to say fellas, i can also say ladys and gentlemen
ReplyDeleteOutrageous.
ReplyDeleteI don't know who you are, but I won't be going back and forth with you. :)
ReplyDeleteyes it would, unfortunately I love to say fellas. but ill take it on consideration
ReplyDeleteyes, exactly, im bad with words!
ReplyDeleteMath time!. you just awake my curiosity.
ReplyDeleteThanks fella
you opinion is very important and maked me stronger!, ill take that in consideration
ReplyDeleteThat sass.
ReplyDeleteNice! I'll wait expectant for your results :-D
ReplyDeleteLets Do This.
ReplyDeleteI would still take S.A, ryze is tanky but it is nice being able to dive their carry with a 800~ shield on you.
ReplyDeleteHow long does a full combo take?
ReplyDeleteAt 4000 mana, using 2K of it for one extended combo is extremely inefficient regardless of raw damage output.
Everyone has know from the dawn of rework that Ryze has bad ap ratios so slotting for ap on Ryze is fairly foolish.
Nice article my good scientists! Can't wait to see an article regarding me... :D
ReplyDeleteIt's great, but one issue. You should add an overall build section. is Ryze with iceborn gauntlet and muramana better than SE and rabadons? does the effect of rabadons increase ap so much that it becomes more cost effecient. What are other ad items that ryze can use?
ReplyDeleteFella is a slang for Fellow which is used as:
ReplyDeleteA fellow in the broadest sense is someone who is an equal or a
comrade. The term fellow is also used to describe a person, particularly
by those in the upper social classes. It is most often used in an
academic context: a fellow is often part of an elite group of learned
people who are awarded fellowship to work together as peers in the
pursuit of knowledge or practice.
In no way does this say MALE fellow.
Fella is a slang for Fellow which is used as:
ReplyDeleteA fellow in the broadest sense is someone who is an equal or a
comrade. The term fellow is also used to describe a person, particularly
by those in the upper social classes. It is most often used in an
academic context: a fellow is often part of an elite group of learned
people who are awarded fellowship to work together as peers in the
pursuit of knowledge or practice.
In no way does this say MALE fellow.
edit* And if you want to use definitons, any male references in the
definitions are far, far down the list in comparison to the used of the
comrade version of Fellow.
Remember that AutoAttack needs around to more than one second to pull off thus your numbers are not very accurate.During that 7 extra auto attacks Ryze could have pulled off at least 2 more Qs
ReplyDelete:( </3
ReplyDeleteI think It would be AWESOME if you turned this in to a video. Great job, it was fun to read even though I don't play Ryze!
ReplyDeleteLovely work, extremely well done Sr Grimm, glad you could make that arcane abacus of your work!
ReplyDeleteThey help fix a giant debate between the two items and everyone comments
ReplyDeleteon fellas? Which is not a gender specific word(personally i think
seraphs because of auto attacking can be hard at times when you are
spamming spells running around dodging and positioning and fights dont
last as long for sufficient use)
Aw, I appreciate you going through the work to make a point. It's cute, really. :)
ReplyDeleteSr. Grimm salutes you with a smile mah friend!
ReplyDeleteGrimm I have to say you are from a lost generation (unfortunatly) I've played WoW for 6 years in the past and theorycrafting was a strict part of my life and gaming design. with the passage of time theorycrafting started to die out and the few of us who still dedicated to the skillfull task eventualy abandoned 1 by 1. It brings me much joy and tears my eyes to see someon who grabbed the bull by the horns again and brought the exact science of theorycrafting to LoL.
ReplyDeleteIf you have room for another number cruncher in the team let know as i would love to help this wonderfull project =)
regards,
z3r0 ;)
It's not a competition :P New fresh content is always welcome to the world of LoL!
ReplyDeleteDudes and Dudettes plz
ReplyDeletewhy was my previous coment removed?
ReplyDeleteSo you're always looking for a DIFFerent View, har har har.
ReplyDeleteyou being so condescending is even cuter, asl fella? <3
ReplyDeleteCould be like Domino's Pizza and list everything as meats and un-meats.
ReplyDeleteI think you need to calm down, fella. ;D
ReplyDeleteMuramana is definitely better on Ryze for damage, but the shield from SA CAN be really useful since you stack mana - vs a Kha'Zix I'd definitely take SA to absorb the burst.
ReplyDeleteInteresting.
ReplyDeleteFellas is heavily male gender specific.
ReplyDeleteIt's plural for fella which in turn is slang or a variation of the more gentlemanly fellow.
ea. "What a handsome young fellow." "I dare say, my daughter's man was an extraordinary fellow."
I hope this does justice to what LeBlanc is advocating.
The thing is that muramana passive doesnt work when you have R on. And the other thing, he also has 2 other musthave ap items like roa and that penetration stick. he also has more than 200% ap scale on his combo which is aoe with his R, so I think SE is still better
ReplyDeleteRyze's ultimate makes all his abilities AE. Does Manamura still work when his ultimate is active?
ReplyDeletesame
ReplyDeleteinteresting analysis, but I'd like to see how it changes with a "full build ryze:" That is, with rod of ages, frozen heart, and other typical mana items, whether the damage for seraphs increases faster or muramana.
ReplyDelete"In other words you rely on basic attacks to massively increase your damage output. "
ReplyDeleteSrsly... i tought this new series of articles were done by decent players.
I would point out that when the word fellow was of common use.
ReplyDeleteWomen weren't considered people by that time and were given none to limited respect.
As such, fellow given as it was addressed to people of equal or a comrade was only used on men.
You forgot the whole part where SE gives you a shield for like 1000 damage.
ReplyDeleteIt's about Muramana Ryze not Seraph's Embrace Ryze
ReplyDeletewhat about the shield.. 25% of 4000... I usually get around 6000 mana on ryze, when he already puts out enough dmg to destroy an entire team with out muramana why not go for the extra 1k shield?
ReplyDeleteWell thank goodness the only thing that matters in League of Legends is the damage you deal. Is this article supposed to be serious?
ReplyDeleteRecommended for me:
ReplyDeleteKate Middleton's Long Curls With Bangs Is The Perfect Christmas Hairstyle
I can totally see how that relates to LoL.
I loved this post and the way you studied both items, hope to see more.
ReplyDeleteI found it quite informative BUT I got something to say. Besides the cosmic quantity of Mana I see a heavy issue in the Muramana-S.E comparison. Seraph gives you a more defensive option. You can activate it to get a 25% of your current mana as a shield. Going to the point you said (4000 Mana), if you activated it with full mana you would get a 1000 dmg points shield. IMO, Muramana could come in handy in mid-late game (when most of the intended teamfights will take place) where you can get that demential dmg output you mention, but during the game Seraph's could save your ass more than once with the shield. And as you pointed out, if you only toggle Muramana in teamfights, it doesn't quite give you a substantial dmg output difference comparing to S.E during the not-teamfighting game.
Your playing an AP mid who scales off AP as well as Mana, they are comparing both of the highest mana giver items to see which one would make you carry harder. if they wanted to talk about how to build Ryze then they would of done a guide on it, where as this is just to demonstrate how powerful a Muramana is rather than a S.E
ReplyDeleteKill the enemy faster? destroy more towers and inhibs = win game
ReplyDeleteHe could say 'ladies' instead and this article would still be about 2 items on ryze. Some of you are losing track of what this article is about. It's not a grammar lesson. Great article!
ReplyDeleteI don't mind being adressed with fella though, or even bro. Sounds good I think^^
ReplyDelete0:
ReplyDeleteExcept you won't be autoattacking every 2 spells on Ryze. It's the same reason why you used to not go Lichbane on him even if the movespeed would have been very beneficial for landing W.
ReplyDeleteHis Ultimate makes all his spells AOE so AP isn't completely useless on him. Just a Rabbadon's, ROA, and S.E. with Blue Elixir gives you about 500 AP and a 200 damage boost on his Q. These numbers are on live, and I'm not bothered to calculate it on the pbe until they stop nerfing/buffing his ratios.
ReplyDeleteI met one ryze with a manamura. he freakin two shoted everything. better invest MR. Also the target priority was more ryze then their ADC. I never met such hard hitting AP carrier before but Veigar.
ReplyDeleteit would be interesting if you did a follow up article to answer the questions the original article gave my fellow commentors. I didn't have questions about Ryze like this until you made this article XP lol loved it but now I want to know more about his scaling off itemization on manamune and Arch angels
ReplyDeleteWhy choose 1, when you can has both....
ReplyDeleteHe said fella 4 times. And none of you will shut up about it.
ReplyDelete"Women weren't considered people by that time and were given none to limited respect."
ReplyDeleteWow, exactly what time period are you refering too? While it is true that historically women have not always enjoyed the same rights as men, this statement is pretty extreme...
I really appreciate the work you're putting into making quality articles, but a couple of things stood out to me. You set out asking "which is better," but your conclusion is based solely on which does more damage. Doing more damage doesn't necessarily mean that Muramana is better, does it? Demonstrating that MM does more damage than SE is fine as long as you clarify that it's what you're actually doing.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, this doesn't take into account the AoE portion of his ultimate. It benefits from AP but it doesn't benefit from the Muramana proc, and it's safe to say that it contributes a large portion of Ryze's DPS during teamfights. You've concluded that Muramana does more damage, but what if that isn't always true? In what situations, if any, will the AP from SE offer more damage than MM in the form of AoE? Regardless, thanks for the article.
Are you the z3r0x that made the splendid Republic at War Mod?
ReplyDeleteTop notch article. Five stars!
ReplyDeleteI approve the organized and scientific approach to your research!
I have one question, however. Have you considered the effect of Ryze's ultimate, which makes all his spells aoe? Muramana should not work on his spells during his ultimate's duration, and I wonder if that might make the Seraph's Embrace do more overall damage.
Just a thought. Good work anyways.
im retired from start wars m8 ^^
ReplyDeleteAhh, I see, well just wanted to let you know that I am a huge fan of your work.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with all your future endeavors!
The price to pay for going with Muramana is more than just the huge mana costs. The article fails to consider the active on Seraph's embrace.
ReplyDeleteThe difference in damage on the last comparison is 1474HP, while, in this situation, Seraph's will shield for 1000HP.
But that 1474 is reduced by his enemies' resistances, while the 1000HP is increased by his own. In the vast majority of situations the Seraph's will soak up more damage than the Muramana will deal.
Not talking for Grimm here but I'd respond to that point with "Ryze will always be dealing damage but not always taking damage". How would you aim to factor in the shield exactly? How many situations would you need it to survive versus throwing so much extra burst on to a target?
ReplyDeleteMuramana does work when Ryze's ultimate is on.
ReplyDeleteTo quote CertainlyT: "It does, yes. Desperate Power doesn't change the core function of
Ryze's spells, it just causes them to also deal spell type AOE to all
units near the target in addition to the base effect."
So if you have the option to weave in an auto attack or do nothing, you'd rather do nothing?
ReplyDeleteYes
ReplyDeleteTo quote CertainlyT: "It does, yes. Desperate Power doesn't change the core function of
Ryze's spells, it just causes them to also deal spell type AOE to all
units near the target in addition to the base effect."
Muramana does work when Ryze's ultimate is on.
ReplyDeleteTo quote CertainlyT: "It does, yes. Desperate Power doesn't change the core function of
Ryze's spells, it just causes them to also deal spell type AOE to all
units near the target in addition to the base effect."
What was your previous comment? It might have gotten eat up if it had too many downvotes or too much profanity
ReplyDeleteI believe this is something Grimm has planned
ReplyDelete(Heimerdinger, even as early as the start of 1900s women were still regarded severely less than their male counterparts - How else are there numerous numerous Women's Right Movement?
ReplyDeleteIt was bad back then just imagine how bad it was centuries before and centuries before that? You'll find only a few. a few Matriarchal to Equalist starting societies.
Everywhere else it was purely Patriarchal. Where men ruled society.
To answer your question though, fellow started in use at the 12th century, it was the same time that women started having some - more like few - rights. However just like how stubborn people are to change today, with gay rights and so, the same could be said to women rights. A society rules by men could not easily accept that women, would have a voice, even if little in their society as for centuries they had none.
It's even worst in eastern cultures, where like my ancestors [I'm chinese] it was bad luck especially in rich families to have bore a girl child and as they grew they were just treated on how pretty they were to attract prospecting rich male heirs of other families so the girl's family could at least get a great amount to decent dower/bride price.)
Obviously, Muramana is better. If you start a teamfight with full mana and a blue buff, you will want to deal as much damage as possible as fast as you can. While Muramana will EAT all your mana, you will do additional 1k+ damage, which might burst fast enough the enemy and save you.
ReplyDeleteI am really looking forward to this series. I'm not so good with numbers... Bashing heads is more of my skillset.
ReplyDeleteI see. Thanks for the clarification.
ReplyDeletethis isnt a guide on how to play ryze, its more of a comparison of the items with ryze on one aspect of the game which is offensive dmg.
ReplyDeleteYou guys should do a "which one is better on ezreal: Triforce, IE"
ReplyDeleteI like the article but I feel one thing was missing from it, the active ability on seraph's embrace. In the end it comes down to more of a offensive/defensive trade off from my point of view. With a mana built ryze the shield from seraph's would often be no less than 500 and often higher.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to seeing more articles like this :)
Greetings Comrades!
ReplyDeleteA lot of your ideas have been taken on account, I have a lot of math to do (im waiting for the ryze changes, just to keep this updated)
Wow, was thinking and working on the same thing, just diden't get to the end yet. Really great post bro!!! I only miss that you diden't said anything about SE giving you a shield, and if I count correctly it uses up 410 mana ( 1640x0,25 ) which gives you the equalent shield.
ReplyDeleteThis also means that you will still have, after the 3 second shield, a mana pool of 1230. Which is enough for a fool combo again. This also proves what you concluded SE for long fights, Muramana for epic DMG. Great job on the topic bro!
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